Breaking Bánh Mì with Ethan Lim
Ethan Lim, an award-winning, Chinese-Cambodian American owner of Hermosa Restaurant shares his story as a restaurateur
Photo of Chef Ethan Lim at his Hermosa Restaurant. Photo Credit: PBS
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About a month after I interviewed Chef Ethan Lim for this week’s newsletter post, I made a visit to his Hermosa Restaurant joined by my friends Paris and Jonathan. I had gone to his restaurant in the past to grab his popular Cambodian Fried Chicken Sandwich on the go, but this time, I wanted to experience his Cambodian fine dining treatment. RSVPs to his limited two table restaurant is a tricky affair as his reservations fill up a few months in advanced but with a stroke of luck on my side, I was able to grab a table. The atmosphere in his hole-in-a-wall shop is intimate. Wine glasses filled the restaurant. A vintage coke machine stands in the corner with a comic strip in the wall background. Ethan greets us and quietly prepares our special curated Taste of Cambodia 4 course meals for us.
The meals that we were served were the following:
Beef chips
Crudites, Lettuce Wraps and Dips (Thai Basil, Tuek Kroeung —Cod & Mackerel Dip, Prahok Ktiss—Coconut and Pork Belly Dip, Shrimp Dip, and his mom’s dish Fermented Beef Sausage (Twa-Ko)
Nyorm Sach Chrouk (Grilled Pork Salad, Cilantro, Culantro, Mint, and Peanuts
Somhlor Machu (Tamarind Sour Soup, Crab, Squid, Granzino, Garlic Rice)
Cambodian Fried Chicken served with various spicy sauces and pickled papaya
Tres Leches (Coconut and Pandan)
Each of these meals carries a good variety of spices. My favorite was the Nyorm Sach Chrouk with its crunchy texture with the grilled pork tendered to near perfection to balance the medium sourness of the salad. The fried chicken was crispy and breaded to the right fit which allowed for the juiciness and thickness of the dark meat to come through. My friends and I greatly enjoyed the food and the personalized table service from Ethan and our server. With that said, I hope you plan ahead for your RSVP to Hermosa and be treated to a Cambodian food adventure. In the meantime, I hope you enjoy my interview with Ethan below (also available on audio on top of this page)
Randy:
Welcome to the Banh Mi Bites newsletter, I am joined by Ethan Lim, owner of Hermosa restaurant located in the Chicago Hermosa neighborhood. Welcome, and thank you for joining me today. And how are you doing today?
Ethan:
Thanks for having me on, Randy. And it's a beautiful day in Chicago. So I am doing good.
Randy
How long have you had Hermosa Restaurant for?
Ethan:
This year has been nine years since I have had Hermosa. But our family, we have been here at this location of my restaurant since 1986. So it will be (38) years this year.
Randy:
That's incredible. Ethan, tell us about how your family came to Chicago, and what led them to open up their first family restaurant?
Ethan:
Our family, we are refugees from the war (Cambodian Civil War). And my parents were and my older siblings were born in Cambodia. Some were born during the war and some were born pre-war, but yet Cambodia is home for a long time to the majority of my older siblings along with my parents. So when the war happened, my family moved to the refugee camp side, the Thai border. And, you know, that's where I was born, along with my younger sister. In 1984, that's when we moved here to Chicago. And Chicago has been home, or since then, although I lived in the west coast a little bit. But for the rest of the family, I was just, it's where we planted our roots since we moved here.
Randy:
What did you learn about your parents working in the restaurant business and what was appealing about the restaurant to you?
Ethan:
Parents have always taught us in terms of our character to always be tough. You know, as survivors, the war is the virus of genocide during the Vietnam War to the Khmer Rouge. Learn, (learning) to have some tenacity. It's very, it's core of who, I guess a lot of us as refugees, and a lot of us, culturally, it identifies us. And that also leads (us) to this industry, the restaurant industry, and hospitality. The traditional 40 hours a week, 9-5 sort of scenario schedule does not work for us. So working in the restaurant and hospitality, you're sometimes here for 14 to 16 hours a day. But at the same time, when you are creating an environment, you're creating an experience, and you're creating food. In the simplest format is to make people happy and creating a space for them, especially around food in the toughest times to just make them happy and to feel nourished. The 14-15 hours makes it very rewarding and it takes a tough personality to be able to carry that.
Randy:
How did your parents react to you wanting to cook and own a restaurant?
Ethan:
They definitely wanted us to grow into something else. I clearly remember mom or dad saying that we want you to be more comfortable. But I guess the word comfortable is kind of a relative and operative word, where it's a matter of, I think, what we have a privilege here and so the next generation living here in America is that we can have the possibility of being comfortable in what we do and love as well. When they understood that I wanted to be back in food and hospitality, they thought that it was going to be tough, and it's going to be a lot of work. But it's very fulfilling. It's very rewarding.
Randy:
Yeah, and I think I recall, correct me if I'm wrong, you actually dropped out of high school. Is that correct? What led you to that?
Ethan:
I was doing really well, in high school, I was an honor student in a bunch of honors classes and I have friends who are in AP (classes) and like, though I was a nerd through all through high school but I came to really realize that the things that I really want to learn most–cooking and surrounding people and understanding social networks and communities, you can't really learn that in a schooling environment. Seeing how tough characters can succeed through the lens of my parents, it gave me some sense of confidence that being street smart, being able to communicate and create a community or be part of communities that take care of each other is extremely important. We see that relative to, you know, the refugee community here in Chicago, how they've created their community, and (how) they've also grown with each other. So for me, the time period when I was growing up was like the late 90s, early 2000s, that's when you had your high school/college years and an emphasis for education at that time was STEM, so science, technology, engineering, math, I was always arts centric. Arts centric in regards to culture, in regards to food. The schools at that time were very science, technology, engineering, and math focused. I remember growing up and seeing how schools of the past had (home) economics and that's like, “Hey, why do we not have these sorts of classes in school?” Those are what interests me and when you see that live happening around you, you have people who are creating a profession out of work, but we didn’t have access to that. In our high school environment or school environments, it made me crave to go learn that elsewhere. Recognizing that there are other platforms, there are other environments that you can learn from.
Randy:
Thank you for sharing that with us. To change gears here. The Chicago Hermosa neighborhood is predominately Black and Latinx, gentrification is a daily threat to these communities, which includes the Uptown neighborhood where Southeast Asian Americans have made it their home for the past four decades. How do you establish trust with the Black and Latinx communities with your business as someone who could be seen as an outsider?
Ethan:
I think for us as a family, like I said, we've been here since ‘86. When you talk about gentrification, you’re talking about the fresh meat that's coming right off the block to change your environment and your community in a very short time period. We've been here as a family, 30+ years, and we've had guests that have been patrons at our restaurant for multiple generations, and we get to know them and know the neighborhood association. We recognize who they are, and we are champions of what they do here as well. So if gentrification is negative, when it is a single purpose as to who benefits from it, and who is wanting to grow from it. Our family here, we have an ongoing process with the community. So it's not just, “oh, here's Hermosa as a restaurant that's only been here nine years. It’s us as a family who have been here for decades.”
Randy:
I think that it is very important that you bring that to the surface. I don't know if you've read Curtis Chin’s, “Everything I Learned, I Learned In A Chinese Restaurant”, where it takes place in Detroit. I think it's a great book that I would highly recommend, because it does go into that whole aspect of that work and what it means to have a restaurant that is in a very multi-diverse community.
Ethan:
You know, definitely interesting that when you brought it up to, you know, when it comes to like the Black and Latinx (community), it's where we've grown to be very objective. And if we need to grow, everyone needs to grow with us. And we, the community grow, all of us have to grow and how we can just have everyone be a part of it. Everyone who is, especially those who are less fortunate, (we have to) make sure that they are part of it too.
Randy:
Cambodian food, especially in Chicago is still under the radar. We have lost a number of Cambodian restaurants over the years. Cambodian food is still unfamiliar to many non-Cambodian folks here in Chicago. Your menu carries familiar foods like hot dogs, burgers, fries, and even donuts. But beneath that, you have a few Cambodian entrees to go along with that. How do you go about introducing Cambodian food to a city that is unfamiliar with it? And what has the feedback been from the community itself?
Ethan:
As far as introducing Cambodia food to the city, I think I went to it with a very clear vision, that it's been so underrepresented. And, you know, you hear stories of immigrant families that have to always have a separate menu to cater to the public. More business purposes. And, you know, there's stuff that we always hate behind the scenes, and the dishes and flavors we love most, we've always kept to ourselves. But through the years of traveling, and having friends who appreciate characteristics of those flavors, the funky levels, you know, the spicy levels and the fresh produce levels, and, you know, the treatments of ingredients in such a very clear simple format and the complexities and other flavors all at the same time. It just really sparked that. We see those parallel flavors in other cuisines. Why should we, so why should we be apprehensive to share that, and it's stuff that we crave on a daily basis and someone else would probably crave it. And it just becomes a domino effect at that point, as long as someone else craves it, and they share it, and someone else likes it. You know, the only thing that's stopping us from sharing is ourselves when we are not allowing us to share.
Randy:
I appreciate you sharing that with us because as a person who's come into your restaurant several times over, it makes me appreciate my heritage, it makes me appreciate being able to share that with other friends, and especially with our community members who may not have the access to Cambodian food. And I think that's wonderful to see that continue, and I would like to ask you, like, how would you describe your restaurant, the vibe of your restaurant?
Ethan:
So restaurant-wise, I keep it fun. I keep it light, I keep it super chill. Where generally, we're a very small team here, it's 3 to 4 of us during the service period, and the restaurant seats 14 at most. So we're really taking care of it, it's a small team. Our ratio (with our customers) is very much one-on-one. Music is a lot of indie stuff, I tend to stay away from Top 40s Cuisine wise, it’s just a different take on Cambodian cuisine. Heritage wise, we're Chinese, but a lot of the culture from where we grew up, my siblings grew up and my parents grew up is Cambodian that is culturally embedded into them. And now we are here in the United States as you know, 1st generation Asian American. So we're now exposed to not just cuisines of Cambodia but like cuisines of everywhere else. For us to say authentically, what is authentic Cambodian cuisine? Like, there's so much other stuff that we love, and we want to share. What started my process of sharing flavors of Cambodian cuisine is now looking at how we integrate cultures, integrate concepts together and integrate dishes and techniques. That's just not exclusive and authentic necessarily, although there are some authentic dishes on the menu. But how can we make our flavors that we grow up to be even more exciting in a different format?
Randy:
How did you come up with the curation of your “Taste of Cambodia”? especially the ones you host in the evening?
Ethan:
I view it in its simplest format as how we eat. At home, we always eat family style. So everything is all designed to be shared. So it needs to stay true in terms of the format of how we eat dinner. I call it a family meal. So the intent is everyone eats their dishes as a family together. And then from there is looking at courses, how they are structured, you always have your shared appetizers, your soups, your salads that are synonymous with all cultures, and then dishes that we sometimes like to eat with rice, that there was always going to be a rice proponent and presentations of food that is more of a Western influence. But at the end of the flavors, you are gonna get your prahoks that are intense. Then you've got the kroeung that triggers your senses, that it is in Cambodian cuisine and now you just expand it to other ways of showing.
Randy:
Your mom recently passed away from cancer last year, what can you tell us about what she instilled in you? And how do you plan to honor her legacy?
Ethan:
Mom has taught us so many different teachings and lessons. And you know at core is always taking care of community and family members. Right? That's number one. And we do what we do, should be because we love it. It’s (also) never about money first. My mom always, she repeatedly tells us, it's like, you can never make all the money in the world and you'll never take it with you. So she also grew up and as a leader in time during the war, so family at core for our culture is always most important. And that coupled with everything, other philosophies in life. As she grows, the people she cares about in our family, our community needs to grow with us. So, yeah, I'm excited to continue some of the work that the communities like, mostly for the temples that my mom (parents) were heavily involved in, and just kind of see what the next chapter is and grow and be a part of that.
Randy:
How do you honor your Cambodian heritage outside the restaurant?
Ethan:
The temple, for sure. All the major holidays, we will go to one, and even in between when there is spare time, and when it is not a major festival, my parents have always asked me to accompany them to (the temple) to just see what the monks needs, and all the the offerings that we can do to help other people as well and be a part of the heart of that central religious spiritual figure part of our community. But from there, like some of my closest friends from high school are Khmer. One of my best friends from high school, we recently got together in Vegas. She's living in California. A lot of her relatives are from Long Beach (Cambodia Town). I would love to go to Lowell and just explore more with the community there and Seattle for sure. Some of my closest friends are Khmer and it's been wonderful to see how we all have grown together since high school.
Randy:
That's awesome and wonderful to hear that. The restaurant industry can often be very taxing and cutthroat. Do you find ways to prioritize your own self care?
Ethan:
Yes. Self care to me is very important. Something that I recognized in this industry even when I opened Hermosa, was to create a culture that is going to be a lot more balanced. And it takes a moment to create a culture in branding. And a lot of it has to do with making sure that the intent of creating a culture follows through. The restaurant industry, a lot of the time, is very reactive, meaning that we tend to prepare food and we wait around for customers and guests to arrive. Then, we execute it. So we react to guests showing up. We've grown to a format here that we can anticipate that we can operate and plan. Yes, in revenue, and we have some sort of balance structure on operation, so that my team can have a balanced lifestyle to just spend time with people outside of work and they love it.
Randy:
It sounds like the opposite of The Bear (tv show). I don't know if you've ever seen that TV show (laughs)
Ethan:
(laughs)
I have not, I have not watched it. But all my friends who have worked in (the restaurant industry) worked in similar environments for decades before The Bear. They would not watch it because they're like, sort of traumatized by it. And I was like, that would trigger PTSD. It’s sort of like, okay, I'm watching a reality but I don't live in that reality (now). I probably should watch a couple episodes when it comes to that. But it's the time to just steer away from that culture, as we hear. Oftentimes, when it comes to growing an industry in that environment. (Having) a workplace where there's an operation that is more structured, it's easier to have.
Randy:
Any exciting plans you have for Hermosa?
Ethan:
Oh, I don't think it's Hermosa specific at this point. When mom passed and even now with dad, it's like, I have been fortunate and so privileged to go to a spot that draws interests. And I look forward to sharing it with the family to see how we collectively as a family and community just grow more in terms of, let's see the next chapter to allow people to enjoy the flavors that we love and make it more accessible.
Randy:
Last question. So if you had to talk to your high school self, what would you say to that person?
Ethan:
There is a quote from a movie that I will have to get back to you on. And it is along the lines. And I clearly remember the scene from the movie, I just can't remember the title of it but it is,
“Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end”. - John Lennon
Randy:
Thank you so much for your time. This has been very wonderful to hear about your experience with Hermosa and also seeing what the future is possible moving forward. So thank you so much for your time
Ethan:
You're welcome. Thanks for having me!
Side Notes:
You can check out Ethan’s documentary featured on PBS here directed by Dustin Nakao-Haider.
You can visit Hermosa Restaurant at 4356 W Armitage Ave, Chicago, IL 60639 or visit on their Facebook page or IG @ hermosachicago.
Congrats on finding one of the few restaurateurs in Chicago who’s also a good person! Lol I’ll have to make my way to Hermosa someday soon (or as soon as the reservations will allow). Excellent interview, as always!!